Re: And You Thought Harleys Were Expnsive

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 02:50:13 -0000, ~kurt
<actinouranium@earthlink.net> wrote:

>.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com <> wrote:
>>
>> Kinda hard to see the quality of the welds in those shots,
>> huh ?
>
>Yea, but I couldn't find anything closer with a quick search. GP bikes
>are crude looking. The welds on that Ducati don't look any different
>from the welds on a production sportbike, and there is nothing special
>about the welds on a GP bike. It just isn't high up there on the list
>of things to do beyond functionality. Lets face it, those bikes get
>destroyed so what is the point. Now, the finish done inside the engine to
>produce that kind of power is impressive. Stock engines on production, and
>even the production GP bikes (the 125s and 250s available to the public), are
>very sloppy. That is why a fast competitive GP bike has had a lot of engine
>work just to get everything into spec and polished up before even the port
>work and other tuning stuff is done.
>
>> decisions of the Ducati, I was commenting on the display of poor
>> workmanship ( or rather, I should say 'average' workmanship, it was
>
>Average as in pretty, but still fully functional, right?

On the Ducati, 'functional but not especially pretty work'.
Maybe part of my problem with is my mental image of 'A Ducati' -
somehow it's my impression, perhaps mistaken, that they market
themselves as 'Superior to all the others', 'the Elite', 'The Class
Act' etc. maybe they don't.

>
>> not 'poor', really - on a piece of equipment where I think 'average'
>> is not good enough, for the price charged ). Poor workmanship on a
>
>I understand what you are saying, but when you compare the price of that
>bike to a 125 cc GP bike available to the public for just under half the cost
>(as I mentioned in a previous post) of that Ducati, it doesn't seem so
>outrageous. Those bikes are bought by real people with real jobs to be raced
>and crashed on a regular basis. They are not typically bought by rich guys who
>are going to put them on display like what is going to happen to most of those
>poor Ducati Desmosedici RR bikes. I would say those 125 and 250 cc bikes help
>to establish a baseline for the pricing, and if you look at how the price
>jumps from a 125 cc GP bike, to a 250 cc one, $75K for the Desmosedici RR
>(which isn't a real FIM MotoGP bike, but as close as any mortal is going to
>get) isn't so bad.
>
>You should have seen what the crankcase cover looked like. There was
>no finish on it at all. It was very crude. No, there were no sharp edges,
>tool marks, or anything bad like that, but just dull and unfinished looking.

Makes perfect sense on a bike where they're trying to save
money, and it's going to be raced and crashed for a living. But on a
'display bike cum artwork showpiece' ? Nah ......

Anyway ..... I think this horse is dead, of that I'm pretty sure :-)

( See, Don ? I can too !!! :-) )


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On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:31:41 -0800 (PST), Vaughn <vbrandt@gmail.com>
wrote:


>> Anyway ..... I think this horse is dead, of that I'm pretty sure :-)
>>
>> ( See, Don ? I can too !!! :-) )
>>

>Not dead yet, one more kick here.

<whinny whinny>

>The weld doesn't look barbed on the ducati, and so long as it is truly
>very strong, I'm okay with that. A barbed weld that caught a
>microfiber towel during a wipe down would be grossly unacceptable. A
>weld that broke down after 25,000 miles of hard use would be
>unacceptable. But if the bike has a smooth but uneven weld that is
>very very strong, then art of it is in the handling - rather than
>minor aesthetic points. I abhor "garage art" bikes, like a lot of OCC
>and custom hardleys. Some Ducati owners like the image and cosmetics
>a bit too much as well, and think of the bike as a fashion accessory
>like a wealthy dame who wears a lot of jewelry. I think it is all a
>waste of brilliant potential. Any bike that is too beautiful to ride
>hard in the right place is a crime against technology.

If it had been on a track, or in an article about race bikes,
I wouldn't have thought twice about the weld. But, given the title of
the piece 'Super Luxury Motorcycles', 'some of the most expensive
bikes in the world' , and it's associates in the article of
non-ridable butt-jewellry, I looked at it with a different eye.

My left one, if you have to ask.

And someone said something about 'not having a jig to do a
machine weld' - the article says they're making 1,500 of them, more
than enough to justify production jigs for a welding step. Obviously
they have all kinds of molds, jigs, etc, for the rest of it .....

</whinny>




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..p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com <> wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:31:41 -0800 (PST), Vaughn <vbrandt@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>and custom hardleys. Some Ducati owners like the image and cosmetics
>>a bit too much as well, and think of the bike as a fashion accessory

I haven't run across a Ducati owner who didn't love his bike - I'm not
sure if that is because the bikes are so great, or if it is because the
owners spent so much money it hurts too much to believe otherwise....

> If it had been on a track, or in an article about race bikes,
> I wouldn't have thought twice about the weld. But, given the title of
> the piece 'Super Luxury Motorcycles', 'some of the most expensive
> bikes in the world' , and it's associates in the article of
> non-ridable butt-jewellry, I looked at it with a different eye.

I forgot to bring that up - I don't think the Desmo RR had any place in
that article as it is far from a luxury bike. At the DC bike show, it
didn't get nearly the attention the Ducati 1098 did. It just wasn't as
pretty. I think what I really liked about the RR when I saw it in person
is that Ducati was clearly not making a piece of artwork for display, but
a street legal race bike.

I'm hoping some of the more talented journalists who have logged some seat
time on the FIM GP bikes will have a shot at getting some track time on some
of the Desmo RR bikes.

- Kurt

"~kurt" <actinouranium@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:13l4jkrnftbqa3c@corp.supernews.com...

> I haven't run across a Ducati owner who didn't love his bike - I'm not
> sure if that is because the bikes are so great, or if it is because the
> owners spent so much money it hurts too much to believe otherwise....
>
> > If it had been on a track, or in an article about race bikes,
> > I wouldn't have thought twice about the weld. But, given the title of
> > the piece 'Super Luxury Motorcycles', 'some of the most expensive
> > bikes in the world' , and it's associates in the article of
> > non-ridable butt-jewellry, I looked at it with a different eye.
>
> I forgot to bring that up - I don't think the Desmo RR had any place in
> that article as it is far from a luxury bike. At the DC bike show, it
> didn't get nearly the attention the Ducati 1098 did. It just wasn't as
> pretty. I think what I really liked about the RR when I saw it in person
> is that Ducati was clearly not making a piece of artwork for display, but
> a street legal race bike.

There's a nice ride report/technical breakdown of the Desmosedici in this months issue of Cycle
World.

Compared to the 2006 MotoGP 990:
" Same bore and stroke. Same gear drive for the cams. Same crank-throw spacing and same "soft-pulse"
firing order. Same valve train layout, including angle and activation-and yeah, the valves and
connecting rods are titanium. Same cassette transmission. Same slipper clutch and these aren't
replicas of the GP Marchesini wheels, these are the GP wheels." Much,much more.....



> I'm hoping some of the more talented journalists who have logged some seat
> time on the FIM GP bikes will have a shot at getting some track time on some
> of the Desmo RR bikes.
>
> - Kurt

Brutus <se6bq5@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> There's a nice ride report/technical breakdown of the Desmosedici in this
> months issue of Cycle
> World.

Thanks, I'll have to check that out.

- Kurt

"~kurt" <actinouranium@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13l5sd890s1qk42@corp.supernews.com...
> Brutus <se6bq5@teleport.com> wrote:
>>
>> There's a nice ride report/technical breakdown of the Desmosedici in this
>> months issue of Cycle
>> World.
>
> Thanks, I'll have to check that out.

What are you expecting to find? Maybe your "more talented journalists" would
have a more believable viewpoint?

http://www.webbikeworld.com/ducati-m...smosedici/rr/:

"Loris Capirossi, Casey Stoner (winner of the San Marino GP and leader of
the Championship and points) and Vittoriano Guareschi, official Ducati
tester, ... all experienced a very familiar feeling and performance with
this bike, very similar to that experienced with the bike they use for the
GP. Actually, the blinkers and mirrors are the only hints that give away the
road-going nature of this “made in Borgo Panigale” joy, but the sensation
felt by riders on the track is absolutely that of a racing bike."


60k euros absolutely makes it a luxury bike, your sense of esthetics
notwithstanding. Excess is the essence of luxury. Very few examples that fit
the defintion better.

"MikeWhy" <boat042-nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dCF4j.2871$NY.1731@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
> "~kurt" <actinouranium@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:13l5sd890s1qk42@corp.supernews.com...
> > Brutus <se6bq5@teleport.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> There's a nice ride report/technical breakdown of the Desmosedici in this
> >> months issue of Cycle
> >> World.
> >
> > Thanks, I'll have to check that out.
>
> What are you expecting to find? Maybe your "more talented journalists" would
> have a more believable viewpoint?
>
> http://www.webbikeworld.com/ducati-m...smosedici/rr/:
>
> "Loris Capirossi, Casey Stoner (winner of the San Marino GP and leader of
> the Championship and points) and Vittoriano Guareschi, official Ducati
> tester, ... all experienced a very familiar feeling and performance with
> this bike, very similar to that experienced with the bike they use for the
> GP. Actually, the blinkers and mirrors are the only hints that give away the
> road-going nature of this “made in Borgo Panigale” joy, but the sensation
> felt by riders on the track is absolutely that of a racing bike."
>
>
> 60k euros absolutely makes it a luxury bike, your sense of esthetics
> notwithstanding.

As this ng is sportbike focused you could make an argument that most sportbikes are luxury items.
The new Duc is the closest production motorcycle to ever replicate a Moto GP bike.

>Excess is the essence of luxury. Very few examples that fit the defintion better.

Yup, it's a little excessive for my wallet....but I wouldn't turn down a ride on it ;-)

MikeWhy <boat042-nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:

> What are you expecting to find? Maybe your "more talented journalists" would
> have a more believable viewpoint?

Yes, ones that don't work for Ducati, that is....

>
> http://www.webbikeworld.com/ducati-m...smosedici/rr/:

Was that supposed to be a smartass remark? I haven't seen any reviews
on the bike at all. My assumption is that the ones who would write about
the bike would the the journalists, not riders. Most of the journalists
are a bit of a joke. However, some are former accomplished racers whose
opinions are worth something. Sure, I'd love to hear what some of the GP
riders have to say about the Ducati - but I'd prefer to hear it from riders
who don't work for Ducati. No matter how you cut it, they would all have
a conflict of interest when it comes to reporting what they really believe
about the bike. Ducati isn't paying Stoner money to mention weaknesses, and
Honda isn't paying Nicky money to talk about how great a Ducati is. While
the below quote is interesting:

> "Loris Capirossi, Casey Stoner (winner of the San Marino GP and leader of
> the Championship and points) and Vittoriano Guareschi, official Ducati
> tester, ... all experienced a very familiar feeling and performance with
> this bike, very similar to that experienced with the bike they use for the
> GP. Actually, the blinkers and mirrors are the only hints that give away the

It is very vague - no substance at all. Someone who has experience in
reviewing motorcycles and describing how they handle, and who has the
skill to ride such a motorcycle to the extent that the difference between
it and a production bike will be noticed, would be worth reading. Road
Racing World is one magazine I could expect such a review from. Kunitsugu
from Sport Rider would probably be another as he has gotten some seat time
on most of the MotoGP machines. I don't know much about the other magazines
because those are the only two I read on a regular basis.

> road-going nature of this “made in Borgo Panigale” joy, but the sensation
> felt by riders on the track is absolutely that of a racing bike."

OK, this is still very vague.... Sounds like a politician.

> 60k euros absolutely makes it a luxury bike, your sense of esthetics
> notwithstanding. Excess is the essence of luxury. Very few examples that fit
> the defintion better.

I typically associate luxury with comfort, not just excess. Being an
American, I don't automatically associate excess (having more than
I need) with luxury.

- Kurt

..p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 08:45:14 -0800 (PST), Alexey
> <inline_four@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Dec 1, 5:21 pm, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>>> I'd like to dream of a company that doesn't scrimp out $
>>> 20
>>> worth of craftsmanship cost on a $ 75,000 product.
>>
>> What does "the best" mean to you? When it comes to race bikes,
>> "the
>> best" to me means "fast, tunable, and can finish races".
>
> How do sloppy welds advance those goals ? BTW, if you look
> closely, you can see some blemishes in the paint that shouldn't be
> there. Doesn't it make you wonder how many 'little things like
> that'
> that you CAN'T see, they didn't bother with ?
>
> When it comes to a REPLICA like the one in the article, one
> that is never intended to see a track, fit and finish count a lot
> more.
>
>> It might
>> also mean "easy to work on for the technology involved" depending
>> on
>> the application. It never occurred to me to look for "pretty" in a
>> _race_ bike.
>
> Did it ever occur to you to buy a race bike that is NOT a race
> bike ? That's what they're selling.
>
> And for $ 75,000 of ANYTHING short of a house ( at that price
> ), I expect fine craftsmanship and attention to detail.

Never bought a boat or an airplane have you?

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On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 12:10:31 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<jclarke.usenet@cox.net> wrote:

>.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 08:45:14 -0800 (PST), Alexey
>> <inline_four@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Dec 1, 5:21 pm, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>>>> I'd like to dream of a company that doesn't scrimp out $
>>>> 20
>>>> worth of craftsmanship cost on a $ 75,000 product.
>>>
>>> What does "the best" mean to you? When it comes to race bikes,
>>> "the
>>> best" to me means "fast, tunable, and can finish races".
>>
>> How do sloppy welds advance those goals ? BTW, if you look
>> closely, you can see some blemishes in the paint that shouldn't be
>> there. Doesn't it make you wonder how many 'little things like
>> that'
>> that you CAN'T see, they didn't bother with ?
>>
>> When it comes to a REPLICA like the one in the article, one
>> that is never intended to see a track, fit and finish count a lot
>> more.
>>
>>> It might
>>> also mean "easy to work on for the technology involved" depending
>>> on
>>> the application. It never occurred to me to look for "pretty" in a
>>> _race_ bike.
>>
>> Did it ever occur to you to buy a race bike that is NOT a race
>> bike ? That's what they're selling.
>>
>> And for $ 75,000 of ANYTHING short of a house ( at that price
>> ), I expect fine craftsmanship and attention to detail.
>
>Never bought a boat or an airplane have you?
>

Those are not 'short of a house'. Thank you for playing,
please come back and try again :-0


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Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/