Re: And You Thought Harleys Were Expnsive

..p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com <> wrote:
>
> What I've shown are TOP QUALITY welds, like you should expect
> for $ 75,000, not merely 'adequate holding strength welds'.

What I found interesting about that Ducati when I checked it out at the
DC bike show was how it did have the crudeness of a real GP bike. Everything
other than the bodywork was built for nothing more than function - not
pretty. When you consider a completely stock RS-125 is over $10,500, and
that a new KTM 125 GP bike is gonna run you over $30K, $75K for the
closest thing you can buy to a MotoGP bike isn't bad. The only shame is
most of these bikes will never be where they belong - on the track.

While I agree that this weld:

<http://www.lamracing.net/images/misc/9-13-06001.jpg>

looks sloppy, the only thing I would say about the welds on that Ducati
are they are not pretty. They don't look sloppy, and don't look different
from any high end race bikes that I have ever seen. About the only pretty
welds that I have ever seen on a racebike are on the exhaust systems.

Check out the big nasty welds on the new 125 KTM GP bike:

<http://www.usgpru.net/gallery.php?n=100>

They don't look any different from what you will see on a much cheaper
RS-125, which are pretty nasty looking when you are up close.

Anyways - my point - for a GP bike, $75K is a steal. I wouldn't expect
emphasis to be placed on making pretty frame welds.

- Kurt

On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:30:12 -0500, "Battleax"
<unavailable@thistime.net> wrote:

>
>You don't understand the bike, pretty welds have nothing to do with this
>bike or it's price.

That much is apparent. That, and there's NOTHING that
justifies its price, when coupled with such poor workmanship, other
than an ego 'name brand' some people like to stroke off on.

>People spend hundreds of thousands on a Lamborghini or Ferrari and they both
>have poor fit and finish.
>

Fools if they do, then.


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<.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:9vi3l31nlb84vuikn02j5pd1sdqpvs6td9@4ax.com...
>
> A craftsman-quality weld does not hold up any worse than an
> amateur quality one, and often better. The quality of workmanship
> should be commensurate with the price. $ 75,000 is a lot of money for
> a stock non-customized motorcycle.
>

You are the type of person that would call the Mona Lisa "a portrait".

That Ducati is hardly "stock". What an idiot.

On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:14:04 -0700, "Seth Hammond"
<lesliesethhammond@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
><.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>news:nqi3l316iuok4teajug2939ordeat1a7nl@4ax.com.. .
>> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:30:12 -0500, "Battleax"
>> <unavailable@thistime.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>You don't understand the bike, pretty welds have nothing to do with this
>>>bike or it's price.
>>
>> That much is apparent. That, and there's NOTHING that
>> justifies its price, when coupled with such poor workmanship, other
>> than an ego 'name brand' some people like to stroke off on.
>>
>>>People spend hundreds of thousands on a Lamborghini or Ferrari and they
>>>both
>>>have poor fit and finish.
>>>
>>
>> Fools if they do, then.
>>
>>
>> --
>
>I doubt that can be supported. Both cars are hand-built to extreme
>tolerances, that is unless tv footage was staged.
>

Just to clarify - I was saying - **IF** the F & F are poor (
something I do not know, one way or the other ), people would be fools
to pay the price they pay for them.


--
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Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
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On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:47:46 -0800 (PST), Bruce Richmond
<bsr3997@my-deja.com> wrote:

>On Dec 1, 4:04 pm, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:44:46 -0800 (PST), "bsr3...@my-deja.com"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> >On Dec 1, 1:00 pm, "Brutus" <se6...@teleport.com> wrote:
>> >> <.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >>newson2l3hadick55gut0crgqtnja5isk08id@4ax.com. ..
>>
>> >> > On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 03:55:34 -0800 (PST), Bob Nixon
>> >> > <bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > >On Nov 30, 8:46 pm, "BryanUT" <nestl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> >> > >> <.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >> > >>news:n2i1l313jpf8knv6gt1v3v99ur5mko83n4@4ax.com. ..
>>
>> >> > >> > On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:53:52 -0800, "Eigenvector"
>> >> > >> > <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > >> > For $ 75,000, you don't get any better welding than THIS ?
>> >> > >> > That's pretty fucking sad .... ( Ducati Desmosedici )
>>
>> >> > >> And what exactly is wrong with those welds?- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> > >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> >> > >Nothing! They're aluminum welds. If I look at the welds on my Suzuki
>> >> > >SV-650 they look just like that.
>>
>> >> > You make my point for me. Did your 650 cost $ 75,000 ???? If
>> >> > it did, I 'd sure like to sell you another one.
>>
>> >> > ( original link )
>> >> >http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoess...orcycles/luxur...
>>
>> >> > > With Steel or Titanium they look a
>> >> > >bit nicer but having been a welding hobbyist since the early 60's I
>> >> > >can say with some authority that they look normal.
>>
>> >> > >Bob Nixon.
>>
>> >> > They probably do, to a 'welding hobbyist'. To someone who
>> >> > knows what GOOD welds look like, they look like ...... good HOBBYIST
>> >> > welds. Not professional welds on a $ 75,000 machine.
>>
>> >> > Here's an example ( small, unfortunately ), of a GOOD aluminum
>> >> > weld
>>
>> >> >http://www.gmfco.com/metal_fabricati...lding_aluminum...
>>
>> >> > Notice the fineness and eveness of the bead, as opposed to the big
>> >> > glorpy uneven stuff on the Ducati.
>>
>> >> > Here's some AMATEUR welding, the kind Bob thinks is fine
>>
>> >> >http://www.lamracing.net/images/misc/9-13-06001.jpg
>>
>> >> > See the difference ? Yeh, it'll hold OK - do you pay $ 75,000 for
>> >> > 'it'll hold OK' ?
>>
>> >> > >PS. I have everything from a Gas forge to Oxy Acetylene, Two Stick
>> >> > >welders, two migs( AL &steel) plus a $2000+ tig welder which you can
>> >> > >damn near weld anything with. (Miller, Lincolyn & Victor brands)
>>
>> >> > That's nice. So does Lowes. For $ 75,000, I'm not impressed
>> >> > with 'good hobbyist level work' .
>>
>> >> Bare in mind that this isn't a $100k+ Jesse James or Orange County Chopper, it's a replica of the
>> >> 2006 990cc Ducati MotoGP bike.... [snip]
>>
>> >And as such it is appropriate that the quality of the welds be
>> >consistent with those on the race bike, which I suspect they are. One
>> >of the worst problems with restored race bikes is that they are made
>> >to look nicer than when they were raced.
>>
>> >Bruce
>>
>> A craftsman-quality weld does not hold up any worse than an
>> amateur quality one, and often better. The quality of workmanship
>> should be commensurate with the price. $ 75,000 is a lot of money for
>> a stock non-customized motorcycle.
>
>What part of my post did you not understand? The bike is a "Race Bike
>Replica". On real race bikes they don't care about pretty welds. All
>they care is that the weld is strong without adding excessive weight
>and that it is smooth enough not to catch skin when working on the
>bike. They are making race bikes not artwork. If pretty knocked .001
>second off the lap time they would make it pretty, but it doesn't, so
>they put the money where it will do more good. You do understand that
>a craftsman can demand and get more pay than the average pro don't
>you?

You sure have a lot of excuses for shoddy workmanship at high
$ prices. You don't by any chance work for OCC, do you ?

Or perhaps you think Ducati is a 'bargain basement brand' ?
Is their slogan 'Fast bikes , built dirt cheap' ? Or do they
advertise themselves as 'The best of the best', 'SOTA in the
industry', 'PREMIUM quality' ? Do you know what PREMIUM quality is
supposed to mean ?


>
>What your complaint boils down to is that you don't think you are
>getting enough for your money, in a manner of speaking since you have
>no intention of ever buying one. You want GP tech and a work of art
>for your 75k. Well, if you're going to dream you might as well dream
>big. Maybe if you hold your breath ;-)

I'd like to dream of a company that doesn't scrimp out $ 20
worth of craftsmanship cost on a $ 75,000 product.


>
>Bruce

--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
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Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
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<.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news6n3l3l4amnpf5h3orl3glshptmqm7g02o@4ax.com...
>
> Or perhaps you think Ducati is a 'bargain basement brand' ?
> Is their slogan 'Fast bikes , built dirt cheap' ? Or do they
> advertise themselves as 'The best of the best', 'SOTA in the
> industry', 'PREMIUM quality' ? Do you know what PREMIUM quality is
> supposed to mean ?
>

Yes we do.

Ducati is the 2007 World Champion in MotoGP.

And they are willing to sell to the public one of their MotoGP bikes. No
other manufacturer does that.

So yeah you stupid non-rider, we know premium. This year Ducati is the best
of the best.

Goddam hillbilly. Go play with your "gun".

..p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:14:04 -0700, "Seth Hammond"
> <lesliesethhammond@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> <.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>> news:nqi3l316iuok4teajug2939ordeat1a7nl@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:30:12 -0500, "Battleax"
>>> <unavailable@thistime.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> You don't understand the bike, pretty welds have nothing to do
>>>> with this bike or it's price.
>>>
>>> That much is apparent. That, and there's NOTHING that
>>> justifies its price, when coupled with such poor workmanship,
>>> other
>>> than an ego 'name brand' some people like to stroke off on.
>>>
>>>> People spend hundreds of thousands on a Lamborghini or Ferrari
>>>> and
>>>> they both
>>>> have poor fit and finish.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Fools if they do, then.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> I doubt that can be supported. Both cars are hand-built to extreme
>> tolerances, that is unless tv footage was staged.
>>
>
> Just to clarify - I was saying - **IF** the F & F are poor (
> something I do not know, one way or the other ), people would be
> fools
> to pay the price they pay for them.

They aren't about fit and finish, they're about going like the hammers
of Hell, and that they do.

Ferrari used to be famous for poor cosmetics.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

..p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com <> wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:30:12 -0500, "Battleax"
><unavailable@thistime.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>You don't understand the bike, pretty welds have nothing to do with this
>>bike or it's price.
>
> That much is apparent. That, and there's NOTHING that
> justifies its price, when coupled with such poor workmanship, other
> than an ego 'name brand' some people like to stroke off on.

Just check out the ugly swingarm and welds on this bike that I'm pretty
sure cost a bit more than $75K:

<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Wr12.jpg>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZR500>

- Kurt

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 00:44:13 -0000, ~kurt
<actinouranium@earthlink.net> wrote:

>.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com <> wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:30:12 -0500, "Battleax"
>><unavailable@thistime.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>You don't understand the bike, pretty welds have nothing to do with this
>>>bike or it's price.
>>
>> That much is apparent. That, and there's NOTHING that
>> justifies its price, when coupled with such poor workmanship, other
>> than an ego 'name brand' some people like to stroke off on.
>
>Just check out the ugly swingarm and welds on this bike that I'm pretty
>sure cost a bit more than $75K:
>
><http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Wr12.jpg>
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZR500>

Kinda hard to see the quality of the welds in those shots,
huh ?

The design of the swingarm is another story. I was not
commenting about the 'attractiveness' or design / engineering
decisions of the Ducati, I was commenting on the display of poor
workmanship ( or rather, I should say 'average' workmanship, it was
not 'poor', really - on a piece of equipment where I think 'average'
is not good enough, for the price charged ). Poor workmanship on a
high-end product ( or any product ) indicates a lack of caring, a lack
of craftsmanship ( expected on high end products, not as much on low
end products ), and leads one to wonder where ELSE they decided to
'not care', and 'not take pride in their work', and not pay attention
to the details. If they don't bother with the details that SHOW, how
much do they worry about the ones that DON'T ? For $ 75,000 I think
they should care a LOT about ALL of them.





--
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Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
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..p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com <> wrote:
>
> Kinda hard to see the quality of the welds in those shots,
> huh ?

Yea, but I couldn't find anything closer with a quick search. GP bikes
are crude looking. The welds on that Ducati don't look any different
from the welds on a production sportbike, and there is nothing special
about the welds on a GP bike. It just isn't high up there on the list
of things to do beyond functionality. Lets face it, those bikes get
destroyed so what is the point. Now, the finish done inside the engine to
produce that kind of power is impressive. Stock engines on production, and
even the production GP bikes (the 125s and 250s available to the public), are
very sloppy. That is why a fast competitive GP bike has had a lot of engine
work just to get everything into spec and polished up before even the port
work and other tuning stuff is done.

> decisions of the Ducati, I was commenting on the display of poor
> workmanship ( or rather, I should say 'average' workmanship, it was

Average as in pretty, but still fully functional, right?

> not 'poor', really - on a piece of equipment where I think 'average'
> is not good enough, for the price charged ). Poor workmanship on a

I understand what you are saying, but when you compare the price of that
bike to a 125 cc GP bike available to the public for just under half the cost
(as I mentioned in a previous post) of that Ducati, it doesn't seem so
outrageous. Those bikes are bought by real people with real jobs to be raced
and crashed on a regular basis. They are not typically bought by rich guys who
are going to put them on display like what is going to happen to most of those
poor Ducati Desmosedici RR bikes. I would say those 125 and 250 cc bikes help
to establish a baseline for the pricing, and if you look at how the price
jumps from a 125 cc GP bike, to a 250 cc one, $75K for the Desmosedici RR
(which isn't a real FIM MotoGP bike, but as close as any mortal is going to
get) isn't so bad.

You should have seen what the crankcase cover looked like. There was
no finish on it at all. It was very crude. No, there were no sharp edges,
tool marks, or anything bad like that, but just dull and unfinished looking.

- Kurt