Re: And You Thought Harleys Were Expnsive

<.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:n2i1l313jpf8knv6gt1v3v99ur5mko83n4@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:53:52 -0800, "Eigenvector"
> <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> For $ 75,000, you don't get any better welding than THIS ?
> That's pretty fucking sad .... ( Ducati Desmosedici )
>
> http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoess...rcycles_09.jpg
>
>
>>
>
> Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
> 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
> 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
> HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
> Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

And what exactly is wrong with those welds?

In article <9LydnQUMUsixRM3anZ2dnUVZ_hmtnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"BryanUT" <nestle12@comcast.net> wrote:

> <.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
> news:n2i1l313jpf8knv6gt1v3v99ur5mko83n4@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:53:52 -0800, "Eigenvector"
> > <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > For $ 75,000, you don't get any better welding than THIS ?
> > That's pretty fucking sad .... ( Ducati Desmosedici )
> >
> > http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoess...s/luxury_motor
> > cycles_09.jpg
> >
> >
> >>
> >
> > Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
> > 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
> > 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
> > HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
> > Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
>
> And what exactly is wrong with those welds?

Instead of being ground down smooth, they look like welds?

--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.

On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 03:55:34 -0800 (PST), Bob Nixon
<bigrex2005@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Nov 30, 8:46 pm, "BryanUT" <nestl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> <.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:n2i1l313jpf8knv6gt1v3v99ur5mko83n4@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:53:52 -0800, "Eigenvector"
>> > <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > For $ 75,000, you don't get any better welding than THIS ?
>> > That's pretty fucking sad .... ( Ducati Desmosedici )
>>
>>
>> And what exactly is wrong with those welds?- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Nothing! They're aluminum welds. If I look at the welds on my Suzuki
>SV-650 they look just like that.

You make my point for me. Did your 650 cost $ 75,000 ???? If
it did, I 'd sure like to sell you another one.


( original link )
http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoess...rcycles_09.jpg


> With Steel or Titanium they look a
>bit nicer but having been a welding hobbyist since the early 60's I
>can say with some authority that they look normal.
>
>Bob Nixon.

They probably do, to a 'welding hobbyist'. To someone who
knows what GOOD welds look like, they look like ...... good HOBBYIST
welds. Not professional welds on a $ 75,000 machine.

Here's an example ( small, unfortunately ), of a GOOD aluminum
weld

http://www.gmfco.com/metal_fabricati..._flange_34.jpg

Notice the fineness and eveness of the bead, as opposed to the big
glorpy uneven stuff on the Ducati.

Here's some AMATEUR welding, the kind Bob thinks is fine

http://www.lamracing.net/images/misc/9-13-06001.jpg

See the difference ? Yeh, it'll hold OK - do you pay $ 75,000 for
'it'll hold OK' ?

>
>PS. I have everything from a Gas forge to Oxy Acetylene, Two Stick
>welders, two migs( AL &steel) plus a $2000+ tig welder which you can
>damn near weld anything with. (Miller, Lincolyn & Victor brands)

That's nice. So does Lowes. For $ 75,000, I'm not impressed
with 'good hobbyist level work' .


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 07:31:50 -0800 (PST), Bob Nixon
<bigrex2005@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Dec 1, 6:27 am, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 03:55:34 -0800 (PST), Bob Nixon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >On Nov 30, 8:46 pm, "BryanUT" <nestl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> >> <.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:n2i1l313jpf8knv6gt1v3v99ur5mko83n4@4ax.com. ..
>>
>> >> > On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:53:52 -0800, "Eigenvector"
>> >> > <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > For $ 75,000, you don't get any better welding than THIS ?
>> >> > That's pretty fucking sad .... ( Ducati Desmosedici )
>
>Not on low volume prodution HAND welded Aluminum,

For $ 75,000, it's pretty fucking sad looking.


>> Here's an example ( small, unfortunately ), of a GOOD aluminum
>> weld
>>
>> http://www.gmfco.com/metal_fabricati...lding_aluminum...
>
>This is an automated weld in an easy place for an automated weld to
>do. Shows how much you know.

Yeh - I know what a GOOD weld looks like. And I've known
people who did welding that pretty, by hand ( not myself ). I stood
in awe of their craftsmanship. I've known people that, when you
picked up their welding work, you would swear it HAD to be from a
machine, NO ONE could do it that nice, that perfectly, by hand - but
you knew them and their shop, and saw them do it BY HAND.

> Ducati could probably automate more of
>their welding but on a low volume unit like their V4 it''s probably
>cost prohibitive to make the jigs just for that swing arm. I can do

Not for $ 75,000 a copy it's not.

>better than your second example mith my TIG welder. It's OK but the
>heat/deposition is set a bit too high.
>
>> Notice the fineness and eveness of the bead, as opposed to the big
>> glorpy uneven stuff on the Ducati.
>
>Like it or not that's hand welding, pal. And if you X-Ray the welds
>(which they do) you'll find out either is equally strong. Sure
>Ducati's are a bit over rated for their price but the original example
>of the Aluminum welded swing arm is plenty strong, non the less. You

I didn't say it wasn't strong, I said it was what you should
get for $ 75,000.

>wouldn't see that sort of quality on a 1/2 million dollar Ferrari but
>60K and 500,000K are also worlds apart. Bottom line, you just can't
>Aluminum machine weld everything like they do on
>"extremely high volume" Costco $149.95 Bicycles.
>
>> Here's some AMATEUR welding, the kind Bob thinks is fine
>>
>> http://www.lamracing.net/images/misc/9-13-06001.jpg
>
>I would consider that a good weld. It may be strong enoung but the
>heart and flow setting is probably set too high or it's MIG instead of
>Tig welded.

I know you would. Most amateurs would. People who don't know
what a CRAFTMAN'S work looks like.

>>
>>
>> >PS. I have everything from a Gas forge to Oxy Acetylene, Two Stick
>> >welders, two migs( AL &steel) plus a $2000+ tig welder which you can
>> >damn near weld anything with. (Miller, Lincolyn & Victor brands)
>>
>> That's nice. So does Lowes. For $ 75,000, I'm not impressed
>> with 'good hobbyist level work' .
>
>The very 1st welded Swingarm is reasonably good HAND TIG welding.
>Possibly it's even MIG welded. Do you even know the differences?

Do you understand the difference between 'reasonably good' and
' $75,000 worth of good' ? Do you understand the difference between a
Timex and a Rolex ? Do you understand the difference between 'keeps
time reliably' and 'is a work of art' ?

No, you don't.

>
>What you've shown are expectations via ignorance of the processes
>involded, nothing more.

What I've shown are TOP QUALITY welds, like you should expect
for $ 75,000, not merely 'adequate holding strength welds'.


>
>Bob Nixon

--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

<.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
newson2l3hadick55gut0crgqtnja5isk08id@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 03:55:34 -0800 (PST), Bob Nixon
> <bigrex2005@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Nov 30, 8:46 pm, "BryanUT" <nestl...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> <.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
> >>
> >> news:n2i1l313jpf8knv6gt1v3v99ur5mko83n4@4ax.com...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:53:52 -0800, "Eigenvector"
> >> > <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > For $ 75,000, you don't get any better welding than THIS ?
> >> > That's pretty fucking sad .... ( Ducati Desmosedici )
> >>
> >>
> >> And what exactly is wrong with those welds?- Hide quoted text -
> >>
> >> - Show quoted text -
> >
> >Nothing! They're aluminum welds. If I look at the welds on my Suzuki
> >SV-650 they look just like that.
>
> You make my point for me. Did your 650 cost $ 75,000 ???? If
> it did, I 'd sure like to sell you another one.
>
>
> ( original link )
> http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoess...rcycles_09.jpg
>
>
> > With Steel or Titanium they look a
> >bit nicer but having been a welding hobbyist since the early 60's I
> >can say with some authority that they look normal.
> >
> >Bob Nixon.
>
> They probably do, to a 'welding hobbyist'. To someone who
> knows what GOOD welds look like, they look like ...... good HOBBYIST
> welds. Not professional welds on a $ 75,000 machine.
>
> Here's an example ( small, unfortunately ), of a GOOD aluminum
> weld
>
> http://www.gmfco.com/metal_fabricati..._flange_34.jpg
>
> Notice the fineness and eveness of the bead, as opposed to the big
> glorpy uneven stuff on the Ducati.
>
> Here's some AMATEUR welding, the kind Bob thinks is fine
>
> http://www.lamracing.net/images/misc/9-13-06001.jpg
>
> See the difference ? Yeh, it'll hold OK - do you pay $ 75,000 for
> 'it'll hold OK' ?
>
> >
> >PS. I have everything from a Gas forge to Oxy Acetylene, Two Stick
> >welders, two migs( AL &steel) plus a $2000+ tig welder which you can
> >damn near weld anything with. (Miller, Lincolyn & Victor brands)
>
> That's nice. So does Lowes. For $ 75,000, I'm not impressed
> with 'good hobbyist level work' .

Bare in mind that this isn't a $100k+ Jesse James or Orange County Chopper, it's a replica of the
2006 990cc Ducati MotoGP bike....Do you think Jay Leno will show up at The Rock Store with one
instead of his fire breathing turbine?

You don't understand the bike, pretty welds have nothing to do with this
bike or it's price.
People spend hundreds of thousands on a Lamborghini or Ferrari and they both
have poor fit and finish.

On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:44:46 -0800 (PST), "bsr3997@my-deja.com"
<bsr3997@my-deja.com> wrote:

>On Dec 1, 1:00 pm, "Brutus" <se6...@teleport.com> wrote:
>> <.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>>
>> newson2l3hadick55gut0crgqtnja5isk08id@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 03:55:34 -0800 (PST), Bob Nixon
>> > <bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > >On Nov 30, 8:46 pm, "BryanUT" <nestl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> > >> <.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>>
>> > >>news:n2i1l313jpf8knv6gt1v3v99ur5mko83n4@4ax.com. ..
>>
>> > >> > On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:53:52 -0800, "Eigenvector"
>> > >> > <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > >> > For $ 75,000, you don't get any better welding than THIS ?
>> > >> > That's pretty fucking sad .... ( Ducati Desmosedici )
>>
>> > >> And what exactly is wrong with those welds?- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > >Nothing! They're aluminum welds. If I look at the welds on my Suzuki
>> > >SV-650 they look just like that.
>>
>> > You make my point for me. Did your 650 cost $ 75,000 ???? If
>> > it did, I 'd sure like to sell you another one.
>>
>> > ( original link )
>> >http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoess...orcycles/luxur...
>>
>> > > With Steel or Titanium they look a
>> > >bit nicer but having been a welding hobbyist since the early 60's I
>> > >can say with some authority that they look normal.
>>
>> > >Bob Nixon.
>>
>> > They probably do, to a 'welding hobbyist'. To someone who
>> > knows what GOOD welds look like, they look like ...... good HOBBYIST
>> > welds. Not professional welds on a $ 75,000 machine.
>>
>> > Here's an example ( small, unfortunately ), of a GOOD aluminum
>> > weld
>>
>> >http://www.gmfco.com/metal_fabricati...lding_aluminum...
>>
>> > Notice the fineness and eveness of the bead, as opposed to the big
>> > glorpy uneven stuff on the Ducati.
>>
>> > Here's some AMATEUR welding, the kind Bob thinks is fine
>>
>> >http://www.lamracing.net/images/misc/9-13-06001.jpg
>>
>> > See the difference ? Yeh, it'll hold OK - do you pay $ 75,000 for
>> > 'it'll hold OK' ?
>>
>> > >PS. I have everything from a Gas forge to Oxy Acetylene, Two Stick
>> > >welders, two migs( AL &steel) plus a $2000+ tig welder which you can
>> > >damn near weld anything with. (Miller, Lincolyn & Victor brands)
>>
>> > That's nice. So does Lowes. For $ 75,000, I'm not impressed
>> > with 'good hobbyist level work' .
>>
>> Bare in mind that this isn't a $100k+ Jesse James or Orange County Chopper, it's a replica of the
>> 2006 990cc Ducati MotoGP bike.... [snip]
>
>And as such it is appropriate that the quality of the welds be
>consistent with those on the race bike, which I suspect they are. One
>of the worst problems with restored race bikes is that they are made
>to look nicer than when they were raced.
>
>Bruce

A craftsman-quality weld does not hold up any worse than an
amateur quality one, and often better. The quality of workmanship
should be commensurate with the price. $ 75,000 is a lot of money for
a stock non-customized motorcycle.


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:41:24 -0800 (PST), Vaughn <vbrandt@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Dec 1, 11:30 am, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 07:31:50 -0800 (PST), Bob Nixon
>>
>>
>>
>> <bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >On Dec 1, 6:27 am, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 03:55:34 -0800 (PST), Bob Nixon
>>
>> >> <bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Nov 30, 8:46 pm, "BryanUT" <nestl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> >> >> <.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >> >>news:n2i1l313jpf8knv6gt1v3v99ur5mko83n4@4ax.com. ..
>>
>> >> >> > On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:53:52 -0800, "Eigenvector"
>> >> >> > <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > For $ 75,000, you don't get any better welding than THIS ?
>> >> >> > That's pretty fucking sad .... ( Ducati Desmosedici )
>>
>> >Not on low volume prodution HAND welded Aluminum,
>>
>> For $ 75,000, it's pretty fucking sad looking.
>>
>> >> Here's an example ( small, unfortunately ), of a GOOD aluminum
>> >> weld
>>
>> >>http://www.gmfco.com/metal_fabricati...lding_aluminum...
>>
>> >This is an automated weld in an easy place for an automated weld to
>> >do. Shows how much you know.
>>
>> Yeh - I know what a GOOD weld looks like. And I've known
>> people who did welding that pretty, by hand ( not myself ). I stood
>> in awe of their craftsmanship. I've known people that, when you
>> picked up their welding work, you would swear it HAD to be from a
>> machine, NO ONE could do it that nice, that perfectly, by hand - but
>> you knew them and their shop, and saw them do it BY HAND.
>>
>> > Ducati could probably automate more of
>> >their welding but on a low volume unit like their V4 it''s probably
>> >cost prohibitive to make the jigs just for that swing arm. I can do
>>
>> Not for $ 75,000 a copy it's not.
>>
>> >better than your second example mith my TIG welder. It's OK but the
>> >heat/deposition is set a bit too high.
>>
>> >> Notice the fineness and eveness of the bead, as opposed to the big
>> >> glorpy uneven stuff on the Ducati.
>>
>> >Like it or not that's hand welding, pal. And if you X-Ray the welds
>> >(which they do) you'll find out either is equally strong. Sure
>> >Ducati's are a bit over rated for their price but the original example
>> >of the Aluminum welded swing arm is plenty strong, non the less. You
>>
>> I didn't say it wasn't strong, I said it was what you should
>> get for $ 75,000.
>>
>> >wouldn't see that sort of quality on a 1/2 million dollar Ferrari but
>> >60K and 500,000K are also worlds apart. Bottom line, you just can't
>> >Aluminum machine weld everything like they do on
>> >"extremely high volume" Costco $149.95 Bicycles.
>>
>> >> Here's some AMATEUR welding, the kind Bob thinks is fine
>>
>> >>http://www.lamracing.net/images/misc/9-13-06001.jpg
>>
>> >I would consider that a good weld. It may be strong enoung but the
>> >heart and flow setting is probably set too high or it's MIG instead of
>> >Tig welded.
>>
>> I know you would. Most amateurs would. People who don't know
>> what a CRAFTMAN'S work looks like.
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >PS. I have everything from a Gas forge to Oxy Acetylene, Two Stick
>> >> >welders, two migs( AL &steel) plus a $2000+ tig welder which you can
>> >> >damn near weld anything with. (Miller, Lincolyn & Victor brands)
>>
>> >> That's nice. So does Lowes. For $ 75,000, I'm not impressed
>> >> with 'good hobbyist level work' .
>>
>> >The very 1st welded Swingarm is reasonably good HAND TIG welding.
>> >Possibly it's even MIG welded. Do you even know the differences?
>>
>> Do you understand the difference between 'reasonably good' and
>> ' $75,000 worth of good' ? Do you understand the difference between a
>> Timex and a Rolex ? Do you understand the difference between 'keeps
>> time reliably' and 'is a work of art' ?
>>
>> No, you don't.
>>
>>
>>
>> >What you've shown are expectations via ignorance of the processes
>> >involded, nothing more.
>>
>> What I've shown are TOP QUALITY welds, like you should expect
>> for $ 75,000, not merely 'adequate holding strength welds'.
>>
>>
>>
>> >Bob Nixon
>>
>> --
>> Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
>>
>> Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
>> 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
>> 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
>> HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
>> Free demo now available onlinehttp://pmilligan.net/palm/
>
>
>Artisan grade welding is a lot like calligraphy. Smooth flowing
>lines, from one breath.

Exactly. It IS an art, to weld like that. I've seen it done.
I am not capable of it myself.


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

<.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:nqi3l316iuok4teajug2939ordeat1a7nl@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:30:12 -0500, "Battleax"
> <unavailable@thistime.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>You don't understand the bike, pretty welds have nothing to do with this
>>bike or it's price.
>
> That much is apparent. That, and there's NOTHING that
> justifies its price, when coupled with such poor workmanship, other
> than an ego 'name brand' some people like to stroke off on.
>
>>People spend hundreds of thousands on a Lamborghini or Ferrari and they
>>both
>>have poor fit and finish.
>>
>
> Fools if they do, then.
>
>
> --

I doubt that can be supported. Both cars are hand-built to extreme
tolerances, that is unless tv footage was staged.

<.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:nqi3l316iuok4teajug2939ordeat1a7nl@4ax.com...
>
> That much is apparent. That, and there's NOTHING that
> justifies its price, when coupled with such poor workmanship, other
> than an ego 'name brand' some people like to stroke off on.
>

Except for the motor, brakes, suspension, weight, frame, handling. It is
the equivilant of buying a street legal Formula 1 car.

But you wouldn't know shit about that 990cc V4 and all it stands for.

When Honda, Yamaha, etc. produce a street legal version of one of their
MotoGP bikes then we can bicker about the price.

Do tell us about your last time in a paddock and your first hand experience
with track bikes and racing machines.

Oh wait, by bad. You don't even have a motorcycle.