8 Ball

ok I got my Vegas 8 Ball two months ago at the time my dealer said the new
pipes and processor would be out in a couple of weeks and to wait. So 3
weeks later I went back and ask about them they said a couple of weeks. Now
2 months later I went and got Cobra Speedsters Ness Air cleaner kit and the
Ness Big shot. After reading the material that came with the items (except
pipes I have not received them yet) I find out the Big shot has just a
couple of settings listed.
1. Do I really need the Big Shot? Or can the dealer program it with the
pipes and filter?
2. Anyone got a Big Shot and if so what do you have on your bike and what
is your set up?

Any help and or replies would be greatly appreciated

Bigdawg wrote:
> ok I got my Vegas 8 Ball two months ago at the time my dealer said the new
> pipes and processor would be out in a couple of weeks and to wait.

What new pipes and processor? Aftermarket ones or stock upgrades like
the Stage One kit?

> So 3
> weeks later I went back and ask about them they said a couple of weeks.

They're "couple weeking" you along. I hate it when a dealer does that
crap. If they pull it on me more than a couple of times, I find somebody
else to do business with.

> Now 2 months later I went and got Cobra Speedsters

http://www.cobrausa.com/content/index.cfm

I looked and looked, couldn't find any reference to a set that fits on a
Victory of any kind. According to their home page, they only make pipes
for the following brands:

Honda
Kawasaki
Suzuki
Yamaha
Harley Davidson

Where did you find your pipes?

> Ness Air cleaner kit

http://shop.arlenness.com/store/prod...roduct_ID+7153

"Note: May require lengthening of the air pressure sensor wires and will
require recalibration of the ECM."

> and the Ness Big shot.

http://shop.arlenness.com/productdet...roduct_ID=7140

> After reading the material that came with the items
> (except pipes I have not received them yet) I find out the Big shot has just
> a couple of settings listed.

Settings are one thing, maps are another. A map is a pre-set specific
configuration for the settings which is intended for a specific model
and-or configuration. It would have been nice if they'd listed the maps
included with the module. Instead, they only said:

"2003-Up Victory models"

> 1. Do I really need the Big Shot? Or can the dealer program it with the
> pipes and filter?

"Big Shot™ modules come pre-loaded with base maps for different models
which can then be fine tuned for each individual’s riding style and bike
with three buttons. Tuning is so easy that laptops and dyno machines are
not required to maximize your motorcycle’s performance."

Sound like it would be pretty easy for you to do it yourself, but of
course the dealer should be able to do it too.

> 2. Anyone got a Big Shot and if so what do you have on your bike and what
> is your set up?

Sorry, I don't have it and don't know anybody that does. I have a stage
one kit on my '05 Touring Cruiser.

> Any help and or replies would be greatly appreciated

Good luck on your project. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

--
John Corliss BS206

is a link to the pipes I got everything on e-bay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...172140327&rd=1

I understand that the chip in the bike can be reprogrammed and according to
PRMT http://www.psychomotive.com/ can even be replaced
but wit a Harley you have to reflash it time you change something which
means you had to go back to the shop $$$. but I want to do it myself which
is what the Big Shot is supposed to do? butlike you said there are preloaded
settings on the big shot and I can tweak in 5 different setting. I was
hoping to find someone with a similar set up to have a starting point. I
don't have access to a dyno so all adjustment will have to be done on the
road.
Thank you for your reply this is my first Vic and I'm impressed.

"Bigdawg" <hzy1369@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:CZ-dndeUFIWbnJHanZ2dnUVZ_q-jnZ2d@comcast.com...
> ok I got my Vegas 8 Ball two months ago at the time my dealer said the new
> pipes and processor would be out in a couple of weeks and to wait. So 3
> weeks later I went back and ask about them they said a couple of weeks.
> Now 2 months later I went and got Cobra Speedsters Ness Air cleaner kit
> and the Ness Big shot. After reading the material that came with the
> items (except pipes I have not received them yet) I find out the Big shot
> has just a couple of settings listed.
> 1. Do I really need the Big Shot? Or can the dealer program it with
> the pipes and filter?
> 2. Anyone got a Big Shot and if so what do you have on your bike and
> what is your set up?
>
> Any help and or replies would be greatly appreciated
>
>

Bigdawg wrote:
> Bigdawg wrote:
>>
>> ok I got my Vegas 8 Ball two months ago at the time my dealer said the new
>> pipes and processor would be out in a couple of weeks and to wait. So 3
>> weeks later I went back and ask about them they said a couple of weeks.
>> Now 2 months later I went and got Cobra Speedsters Ness Air cleaner kit
>> and the Ness Big shot. After reading the material that came with the
>> items (except pipes I have not received them yet) I find out the Big shot
>> has just a couple of settings listed.
>> 1. Do I really need the Big Shot? Or can the dealer program it with
>> the pipes and filter?
>> 2. Anyone got a Big Shot and if so what do you have on your bike and
>> what is your set up?
>>
>> Any help and or replies would be greatly appreciated
>
> is a link to the pipes I got everything on e-bay
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...172140327&rd=1

Strange that the Cobra site doesn't show them. I would really like more
info on them for a friend.

On the other hand, the guy you bought them from said "These are brand
new to the market from a new manufacturer" and Cobra has been around
since at least 2000 and most likely before that.

Why are you sure they're Cobra pipes? Just curious.

> I understand that the chip in the bike can be reprogrammed and according to
> PRMT http://www.psychomotive.com/ can even be replaced
> but wit a Harley you have to reflash it time you change something which
> means you had to go back to the shop $$$. but I want to do it myself which
> is what the Big Shot is supposed to do? butlike you said there are preloaded
> settings on the big shot and I can tweak in 5 different setting. I was
> hoping to find someone with a similar set up to have a starting point. I
> don't have access to a dyno so all adjustment will have to be done on the
> road.

According to that quote of mine, "Tuning is so easy that laptops and
dyno machines are not required" you can do this yourself. Not sure how
that would work though.

> Thank you for your reply this is my first Vic and I'm impressed.

Wait until it gets broken in. That's when it becomes REAL impressive.

--
John Corliss BS206

"John Corliss" <jcorliss@fake.invalid> wrote in message
news:13gspuu7iepla4b@corp.supernews.com...
> Bigdawg wrote:
> > Bigdawg wrote:
> >>
> >> ok I got my Vegas 8 Ball two months ago at the time my dealer said the
new
> >> pipes and processor would be out in a couple of weeks and to wait. So
3
> >> weeks later I went back and ask about them they said a couple of weeks.
> >> Now 2 months later I went and got Cobra Speedsters Ness Air cleaner kit
> >> and the Ness Big shot. After reading the material that came with the
> >> items (except pipes I have not received them yet) I find out the Big
shot
> >> has just a couple of settings listed.
> >> 1. Do I really need the Big Shot? Or can the dealer program it with
> >> the pipes and filter?
> >> 2. Anyone got a Big Shot and if so what do you have on your bike and
> >> what is your set up?
> >>
> >> Any help and or replies would be greatly appreciated
> >
> > is a link to the pipes I got everything on e-bay
> >
> >
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...172140327&rd=1
>
> Strange that the Cobra site doesn't show them. I would really like more
> info on them for a friend.
>
> On the other hand, the guy you bought them from said "These are brand
> new to the market from a new manufacturer" and Cobra has been around
> since at least 2000 and most likely before that.
>
> Why are you sure they're Cobra pipes? Just curious.
>
> > I understand that the chip in the bike can be reprogrammed and according
to
> > PRMT http://www.psychomotive.com/ can even be replaced
> > but wit a Harley you have to reflash it time you change something which
> > means you had to go back to the shop $$$. but I want to do it myself
which
> > is what the Big Shot is supposed to do? butlike you said there are
preloaded
> > settings on the big shot and I can tweak in 5 different setting. I was
> > hoping to find someone with a similar set up to have a starting point.
I
> > don't have access to a dyno so all adjustment will have to be done on
the
> > road.
>
> According to that quote of mine, "Tuning is so easy that laptops and
> dyno machines are not required" you can do this yourself. Not sure how
> that would work though.
>
> > Thank you for your reply this is my first Vic and I'm impressed.
>
> Wait until it gets broken in. That's when it becomes REAL impressive.
>
> --
> John Corliss BS206

Is the Ness 'Big Shot' anything like the Lloydz 'Power Commander' or are
they completely different items?
Doesn't seem like a lot of people around here are that impressed with the
Ness items more go with Lloydz and K-N filters when looking for performance.
I don't have much of an opinion myself as I'm not that much into performance
and am happy with the stock engines performance.

grdøg wrote:
>
> Is the Ness 'Big Shot' anything like the Lloydz 'Power Commander' or are
> they completely different items?
> Doesn't seem like a lot of people around here are that impressed with the
> Ness items more go with Lloydz and K-N filters when looking for performance.
> I don't have much of an opinion myself as I'm not that much into performance
> and am happy with the stock engines performance.

My friend Joe put a Power Commander on his Harley and the thing fried
after a couple of years. He was on the road, so he yanked it and the OEM
ECM took over and got him home with reasonable performance and mileage.

He swears by some other outfit's aftermarket ECM nowadays. Can't
remember off the top of my head which one it is, but I'll ask him again.
He says that he's seen a lot of those Power Commanders screw up since
his did, and he says to avoid them until they take care of whatever the
problem is.

--
John Corliss BS206

"John Corliss" <jcorliss@fake.invalid> wrote in message
news:13gvpmdjhi6po65@corp.supernews.com...
> grdøg wrote:
> >
> > Is the Ness 'Big Shot' anything like the Lloydz 'Power Commander' or are
> > they completely different items?
> > Doesn't seem like a lot of people around here are that impressed with
the
> > Ness items more go with Lloydz and K-N filters when looking for
performance.
> > I don't have much of an opinion myself as I'm not that much into
performance
> > and am happy with the stock engines performance.
>
> My friend Joe put a Power Commander on his Harley and the thing fried
> after a couple of years. He was on the road, so he yanked it and the OEM
> ECM took over and got him home with reasonable performance and mileage.
>
> He swears by some other outfit's aftermarket ECM nowadays. Can't
> remember off the top of my head which one it is, but I'll ask him again.
> He says that he's seen a lot of those Power Commanders screw up since
> his did, and he says to avoid them until they take care of whatever the
> problem is.
>
> --
> John Corliss BS206

Hadn't heard that about the 'power commander' before and did hear about
another unit that some say is real good but couldn't remember the name of
it.Don't recall anything really bad being said about the "Ness" items other
than most seemed to think someone else made something better that cost less.
Again I'll ask are the "Big Shot" and "Power Commander" simular items? They
sound like they may do the same thing but each site uses different terms to
describe what their unit does so I'm not sure.

grdøg wrote:
> John Corliss wrote:
>> grdøg wrote:
>>>
>>> Is the Ness 'Big Shot' anything like the Lloydz 'Power Commander' or are
>>> they completely different items?
>>> Doesn't seem like a lot of people around here are that impressed with
>>> the Ness items more go with Lloydz and K-N filters when looking for
>>> performance. I don't have much of an opinion myself as I'm not that much
>>> into performance and am happy with the stock engines performance.
>>
>> My friend Joe put a Power Commander on his Harley and the thing fried
>> after a couple of years. He was on the road, so he yanked it and the OEM
>> ECM took over and got him home with reasonable performance and mileage.
>>
>> He swears by some other outfit's aftermarket ECM nowadays. Can't
>> remember off the top of my head which one it is, but I'll ask him again.
>> He says that he's seen a lot of those Power Commanders screw up since
>> his did, and he says to avoid them until they take care of whatever the
>> problem is.
>
> Hadn't heard that about the 'power commander' before and did hear about
> another unit that some say is real good but couldn't remember the name of
> it. Don't recall anything really bad being said about the "Ness" items other
> than most seemed to think someone else made something better that cost less.
> Again I'll ask are the "Big Shot" and "Power Commander" simular items? They
> sound like they may do the same thing but each site uses different terms to
> describe what their unit does so I'm not sure.

The Ness Big Shot:

http://shop.arlenness.com/productdet...roduct_ID+7140

and the Power Commander:

http://www.powercommander.com/powerc...x/default.aspx

are similar items in that they're aftermarket ECM addons. When they're
attached to your bike, they work through the stock ECM and take over
control of your bike's fuel system.

Here's from the Ness website:

"Arlen Ness Enterprises introduces their new Big Shot™ Adjustable Fuel
Injection Tuner. The Big Shot™ is a new load-based fuel injection module
that does not require any splicing or modifications to your motorcycle
during installation. Big Shot™ modules come pre-loaded with base maps
for different models which can then be fine tuned for each individual’s
riding style and bike with three buttons. Tuning is so easy that laptops
and dyno machines are not required to maximize your motorcycle’s
performance.
Utilizing the latest in load-based technology in fuel injection
performance, the Big Shot™ detects the exact amount of load on the
engine at any RPM and any road speed and delivers the perfect amount of
fuel to the engine for optimum performance. This is a superior design
over fuel injection modules that work off of throttle position. As
throttle positions can be the same at different speeds and with
different loads on the engine, with the same amount of fuel injected
into the engine in these varying conditions, performance can suffer. "

Here's from the Power Commander website:

"The Power Commander is a fuel injection adjustment unit that plugs
'inline' with the bike’s stock ECU (electronic control unit). The PC
uses original equipment style connectors, so no splicing or cutting of
the harness is required. Most installations take less than 15 minutes,
some as little as 5 minutes.
Changes are made to the bikes fuel and, in some cases, ignition
curves via the PC's onboard microprocessor. Using this technology we are
able to offer a large area of adjustment without making any permanent
changes to the bike’s ECU. Removing the PC returns the bike to its
previous stock condition. Each unit comes complete with software and
cable link that allows you to change between different maps or make
adjustments to a map file."

As you can see, they both do the same thing but claim to do so in a
slightly different manner (Ness uses a "load based" method and PC uses
an "ignition curve" based method.)

Power Commander doesn't make a module that works with the Victory
Touring Cruiser, so I don't have much interest in that company anyway.

I have no idea how the Ness module determines a bikes current load or
which sensors it uses (it does ignore the throttle position sensor I see
though) and how. This site provides a little more info on the subject I
suppose:

http://www.powercardtuning.com/support/load.aspx

but it's still vague. My guess is that the reason they avoid describing
how load is detected is to avoid competition and hey, that's the
American way.

By the way, it looks to me like the Ness unit is simply a re-branded
"Power Card" with a Victory specific mapping added to it. Really.
Compare the pictures of the two:

http://shop.arlenness.com/popuplarge...gShotPR_lg.jpg
http://www.powercardtuning.com/home.aspx

and I also note that Powercard doesn't sell a unit for Victory, probably
by special arrangement with Ness.

I hope that answers your question, but I have to tell you that I don't
use either of these products (yet.) 80)>

--
John Corliss BS206

>
> Power Commander doesn't make a module that works with the Victory
> Touring Cruiser, so I don't have much interest in that company anyway.
>
Lloydz site says that Power commander work with all models Victories 2002 up
Power Commander II and III works with all models Victories 2000 up so I was
confused by the site information

http://quickvic-usa.com/perfparts.html

grdøg wrote:
>> Power Commander doesn't make a module that works with the Victory
>> Touring Cruiser, so I don't have much interest in that company anyway.
>
> Lloydz site says that Power commander work with all models Victories 2002 up
> Power Commander II and III works with all models Victories 2000 up so I was
> confused by the site information
>
> http://quickvic-usa.com/perfparts.html

The Lloydz site appears to be making an unjustified assumption. The
Power Commander site:

http://www.powercommander.com/powerc...x/default.aspx

lists only the following Victory models:

Hammer
V92C
V925C
Vegas

Because of the heavier weight of the Touring Cruiser, it's my guess that
an adjusted ignition curve (the method used by Power Commander) which is
intended for those lighter models wouldn't work with my bike. I could be
wrong, but I don't have the money to experiment and after hearing about
all the PC failures, I really am not interested anyway.

By the way, the unit that my friend recommends for Harleys instead of
the Power Commander (and which I couldn't remember the name of) is the
Vance & Hines "Fuel-Pak":

http://www.fuelpakfi.com/

Unfortunately, at this point they don't seem to make a unit for Victories.

--
John Corliss BS206