Lest We Forget

oasysco wrote:

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_war
>
>Justfy this... Germany and Japan's practice of
>rounding up civilians in villages and slaughtering
>them to get at the civilians that offered armed opposition.

There's a difference between justifying what happened and explaining the laws
under which the combatants operated. The Land War laws and the Geneva
Convention authorized armed forces to take military actions against civilians
who offered armed resitance.

When Belgian civilians resisted the Germans in WWI, the world press
criticized German military action against civilians and there were posters
printed up and publicly displayed informing anybody who saw them what the
Germans had done.

The posters never mentioned that the German action was legal.

During WW2, the Germans were upset about spies and partisans parachuting into
Germany and occupied territory to perform acts of sabotage. Hitler ordered
that all parachutists be shot. Bomber pilots who parachuted out of their
planes over Germany had to be rescued from angry mobs who wanted to kill them
for bombing civilians. Paratroopers in the Normandy invasion were at risk of
being shot as spies, instead of being taken prisoner, if they had to
surrender.

Herman Goering had to answer questions about parachutists during his trial
before the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal. Of course he was found guilty as
accused and sentenced to be hanged.

He just wanted to be shot, like a honorable soldier.

>Or maybe this would be easier to justify... the wholesale
>slaughter of POWs (remember Wake Island).

I'm not justifying that at all. I'm saying what happened.

On March 1, 1942, my uncle was a torpedoman first class aboard the destroyer
USS Edsall which was transporting pilots from Christmas Island to Java, in
hopes they would find planes to fly. Their own planes had been destroyed when
the USS Langley sank in the Indian Ocean.

The Edsall was spotted by the Japanese fleet. They thought the Edsall was a
light cruiser and they began to shell it from 21,000 yards. A thousand naval
rifle shells couldn't hit the Edsall, as the captain kept turning her every
time he saw the guns fire.

Finally, Japanese admiral Nagumo ordered her to be be dive bombed by planes
from his carriers. Once disabled, the Edsall was destroyed by gun fire from a
closer range.

It was not the practice of the Japanese to pick up all survivors, but they
did rescue
5 to 8 sailors, whom they took to a Japanese POW camp in the Celebes before
beheading them.

After the press got ahold of the stories of what happened in the Battle of
the Java Sea, Wake Island, and Bataan, they began to treat POW's somewhat
better.

However, a POW had only about a one-in-three chance of getting out of a
Japanese
POW camp alive.

My uncle has been missing in action now for 65 years. The only news likely to
close the case would be if his remains are found Kendarii. Otherwise, he was
lost at sea with the Edsall.

Nagumo shot his brains out in a cave on the island of Saipan in 1944.

--
Message posted via MotorcycleKB.com
http://www.motorcyclekb.com/Uwe/Foru.../bike/200711/1

On Nov 12, 11:35 am, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.use...@cox.net> wrote:
> oasysco wrote:
> > On Nov 12, 9:53 am, oasysco <wilderkom...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> Have you never heard of the Land War laws and the Geneva
> >>> Convention?
>
> >>> They give occupying armies the authority to use armed force
> >>> against
> >>> civilian populations that offer armed opposition.
>
> >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_war
>
> >> Justfy this... Germany and Japan's practice of
> >> rounding up civilians in villages and slaughtering
> >> them to get at the civilians that offered armed opposition.
>
> >> Or maybe this would be easier to justify... the wholesale
> >> slaughter of POWs (remember Wake Island).
>
> >> Or maybe it's easier to justify this instead, the systematic
> >> elimination of entire populations of civilians regardless of
> >> whether or not they offered armed resistance.
>
> >> Greg
>
> > Forgot to add... it is these and other atrocities that kept the Axis
> > from ever triumphing no matter how many situations you wish might
> > have
> > gone the other way. While madmen may wreak havoc for a short time,
> > good men will eventually put an end to it.
>
> You mean like Rome did to the Vandals?
>
> It's nice to believe that the good guys always triumph in the end, but
> the truth is that the winner generally decrees himself to be "the good
> guy" no matter how nasty he may be by our standards.

Hey, don't ruin my mindset -

Greg

>
> --
> --
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

On Nov 12, 1:02 pm, "Albrecht via MotorcycleKB.com" <u33665@uwe>
wrote:
> oasysco wrote:
> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_war
>
> >Justfy this... Germany and Japan's practice of
> >rounding up civilians in villages and slaughtering
> >them to get at the civilians that offered armed opposition.
>
> There's a difference between justifying what happened and explaining the laws
> under which the combatants operated. The Land War laws and the Geneva
> Convention authorized armed forces to take military actions against civilians
> who offered armed resitance.
>
> When Belgian civilians resisted the Germans in WWI, the world press
> criticized German military action against civilians and there were posters
> printed up and publicly displayed informing anybody who saw them what the
> Germans had done.
>
> The posters never mentioned that the German action was legal.
>
> During WW2, the Germans were upset about spies and partisans parachuting into
> Germany and occupied territory to perform acts of sabotage. Hitler ordered
> that all parachutists be shot. Bomber pilots who parachuted out of their
> planes over Germany had to be rescued from angry mobs who wanted to kill them
> for bombing civilians. Paratroopers in the Normandy invasion were at risk of
> being shot as spies, instead of being taken prisoner, if they had to
> surrender.
>
> Herman Goering had to answer questions about parachutists during his trial
> before the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal. Of course he was found guilty as
> accused and sentenced to be hanged.
>
> He just wanted to be shot, like a honorable soldier.
>
> >Or maybe this would be easier to justify... the wholesale
> >slaughter of POWs (remember Wake Island).
>
> I'm not justifying that at all. I'm saying what happened.
>
> On March 1, 1942, my uncle was a torpedoman first class aboard the destroyer
> USS Edsall which was transporting pilots from Christmas Island to Java, in
> hopes they would find planes to fly. Their own planes had been destroyed when
> the USS Langley sank in the Indian Ocean.
>
> The Edsall was spotted by the Japanese fleet. They thought the Edsall was a
> light cruiser and they began to shell it from 21,000 yards. A thousand naval
> rifle shells couldn't hit the Edsall, as the captain kept turning her every
> time he saw the guns fire.
>
> Finally, Japanese admiral Nagumo ordered her to be be dive bombed by planes
> from his carriers. Once disabled, the Edsall was destroyed by gun fire from a
> closer range.
>
> It was not the practice of the Japanese to pick up all survivors, but they
> did rescue
> 5 to 8 sailors, whom they took to a Japanese POW camp in the Celebes before
> beheading them.
>
> After the press got ahold of the stories of what happened in the Battle of
> the Java Sea, Wake Island, and Bataan, they began to treat POW's somewhat
> better.
>
> However, a POW had only about a one-in-three chance of getting out of a
> Japanese
> POW camp alive.
>
> My uncle has been missing in action now for 65 years. The only news likely to
> close the case would be if his remains are found Kendarii. Otherwise, he was
> lost at sea with the Edsall.
>
> Nagumo shot his brains out in a cave on the island of Saipan in 1944.

Sorry to hear that. My uncle was in the NAVY and to his dying day, he
hated the Japanese. I guess it depends on what you saw and
experienced. I can't put myself into any of it, having not been there
or gone through any of it. I can't imagine what London must have been
like during the 40's or any Russian city/village or Germany when the
Allies started bombing.

Greg
>
> --
> Message posted via MotorcycleKB.comhttp://www.motorcyclekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/bike/200711/1

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:45:00 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<jclarke.usenet@cox.net> wrote:

>tomorrow@erols.com wrote:
>> On Nov 11, 7:35 pm, B-P <Rhiann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hitler was vilified for all eternity as the "mastermind" of the
>>> Third Reich because he was the spokesman for a nation's dream of
>>> carving out a secure place in the world to raise their children.
>>
>> It's not surprising that you would actually believe that that is why
>> Hitler is accurately remembered the way he is.
>
>Personally I think that the most important thing to remember about
>Hitler is not how nasty his regime was, but how slickly he sold it.
>
>"The streets of our country are in turmoil. The universities are full
>of students rebelling and rioting. Communists are seeking to destroy
>our country. Russia is threatening us with her might and the Republic
>is in danger. Yes, danger from within and without. We need law and
>order. Without law and order our nation cannot survive. Elect us and
>we shall restore law and order."
>
>Sound familiar? Wanna guess who said it?
>

And you would replace it with WHAT ? What part of it do you
think should not be said ?

I don't even know who said it, and it doesn't matter. The
point is, it's very easy to take quotes out of the larger context,
find some similarity, and scream 'looky looky ! That's what Hitler
said before the Camps' or 'that's what Stalin said before the
pograms!' ! etc.

If I say 'We have subversive groups here in this country today
that want to overturn America, and we must fight them and win', do you
then say 'Nazi ! Nazi !' at me ??? What if I told you the
(neo)nazi's **ARE** one of those groups ?

What if I say there is an element of Islamists / muslims ( not
all - but an element a segment of that society ) that must not be
allowed to win the day ? Do you call me a name for that ? Do you say
'I've fallen for a propoganda campaign' etc ?? What if I then show
you photographs, real and undoctored and un-faked, of them holding
signs saying 'Behead those who insult Islam' and giving speeches
saying 'America must become an Islamic country, ruled by Shari'a' and
'Death to the Great Satan' ??

If I say 'this country should be run by laws, and there should
be no riots in the streets, no torching of cars and buildings', do you
see me as a neophyte Hitler ?



--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
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<tomorrow@erols.com> wrote in message
news:1194886374.775256.283270@v3g2000hsg.googlegro ups.com...
> On Nov 12, 11:28 am, "Bill Walker" <bill.walk...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > "Calgary" <actual.rider_remove_the_obvio...@telus.net> wrote in message
> >
> > news:v45dj3tup0iijck8tem056em5ria68ogr2@4ax.com...
> >
> >
> >
> > > In 1918, on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day in the eleventh
> > > month, the world rejoiced and celebrated.
> >
> > > After four years of bitter war, an armistice was signed.
> >
> > > The "war to end all wars" was over.
> >
> > > Please take a couple of minutes to remember the brave men and women
> > > who have sacrificed their lives to protect ours.
> >
> > >http://www.actualriders.ca/lest_we_forget.htm
> >
> > "Lest we forget" There are those who have "actually" served.. There are
> > those who have "actually" been a part of our history in contributing to
the
> > life in a free world.. There are the ones who've not been privileged to
> > "serve", but have contributed by participating in respecting the ones
who
> > did serve.. They've advocated for veterans' by petitioning for enhanced
> > benefits..
> >
> > Usenet lip service to our Veterans is considered by many, as an insult
to
> > their real service.. considering, of course.. the source..
>
> Real classy, Sheriff, trashing someone offering a tribute to veterans
> on Veteran's Day.
>
> Not surprising, though, considering, of course, the source.
>

What a bitter old man he must be to take offense at Don's tribute to
the veterans of both his country and ours. As a veteran, I thank Don for
taking a few minutes to post that tribute. Bill has every right in the world
to act 'insulted' over Don's comments, but how dare him to try and speak for
any of the rest of that have served. If in fact Bill did serve, and did
contribute to life in the free world, hooray for him. Serving this country
in uniform does not give anyone the right to determine what is exceptable or
unexceptable when offering up a tribute.... His attempt to convince us that
it does only points out the fool he really is.

Vic

On Nov 12, 9:28 am, "Bill Walker" <bill.walk...@verizon.net> wrote:
> "Calgary" <actual.rider_remove_the_obvio...@telus.net> wrote in message
>
> news:v45dj3tup0iijck8tem056em5ria68ogr2@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > In 1918, on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day in the eleventh
> > month, the world rejoiced and celebrated.
>
> > After four years of bitter war, an armistice was signed.
>
> > The "war to end all wars" was over.
>
> > Please take a couple of minutes to remember the brave men and women
> > who have sacrificed their lives to protect ours.
>
> >http://www.actualriders.ca/lest_we_forget.htm
>
> "Lest we forget" There are those who have "actually" served.. There are
> those who have "actually" been a part of our history in contributing to the
> life in a free world.. There are the ones who've not been privileged to
> "serve", but have contributed by participating in respecting the ones who
> did serve.. They've advocated for veterans' by petitioning for enhanced
> benefits..
>
> Usenet lip service to our Veterans is considered by many, as an insult to
> their real service.. considering, of course.. the source..

Gotta take issue with you there, Bill. Sullying a sincere tribute
because of your petty issues with Don is a selfish way of abusing the
respect Canada's brave war veterans have earned.

Worth viewing, if you haven't seen it: http://www.actualriders.ca/time.wmv

You know I have been posting this or very similar threads to all of
the forums I participate in, for the past three or four years. This is
the first time the topic of honouring our Veterans has been hijacked
by others to further their own personal agendas.

Reeky is a public, non moderated forum, so I suppose it is to be
expected. Fortunately it doesn't happen elsewhere.

The eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month has always
meant something special to me. Something more than just another
holiday. Think about it for a minute. Unlike other holidays we all
honour Remembrance Day at the same time, for the same reason. You
can't say that for Thanksgiving, Christmas or the others. Further
Remembrance Day is truly international. The free countries of the
world all benefited from the results of the World Wars.

More important than all that, it is a time for us to say thanks to the
veterans who have served our countries and in far too many cases
sacrificed their lives to protect ours. We don't do enough of that and
for at least one day a year we can focus on what is important.

Back in the seventies I was a partner in a chain of retail stores.
Around the time shopping hours were being extended I made a point of
keeping our stores closed on the eleventh of November. I placed a
wreath and a plaque in the store entrances to let shoppers know why
our stores were closed. After being fined by the shopping centres and
having my lease threatened by one, we were forced to open. I thought
it was a sad commentary on the times and the direction our communities
were moving.

To this day I still feel strongly about supporting our Vets. I have
played a role with the development of Peacekeepers Park and Memorial
Drive, here in Calgary. Reminding people, through threads like this
and the web page I posted, to take two minutes on Remembrance Day is
not some fleeting fancy for me. I have done what I can to honour our
veterans through my life and will continue to do what I can in the
future.

Let those who choose to use a tribute to our Veterans as fodder for
their own petty agendas if they wish. I hold them in the same esteem I
do those who spray graffiti on the memorials we have honouring our
Veterans.



--
2000 Yamaha Venture Millennium
2004 HD Road King

On Nov 12, 12:45 pm, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.use...@cox.net> wrote:

> "The streets of our country are in turmoil. The universities are full
> of students rebelling and rioting. Communists are seeking to destroy
> our country. Russia is threatening us with her might and the Republic
> is in danger. Yes, danger from within and without. We need law and
> order. Without law and order our nation cannot survive. Elect us and
> we shall restore law and order."
>
> Sound familiar? Wanna guess who said it?

Hillary Clinton?

On Nov 12, 1:27 pm, "Bill Walker" <bill.walk...@verizon.net> wrote:
> <tomor...@erols.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1194886374.775256.283270@v3g2000hsg.googlegro ups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 12, 11:28 am, "Bill Walker" <bill.walk...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> "Calgary" <actual.rider_remove_the_obvio...@telus.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:v45dj3tup0iijck8tem056em5ria68ogr2@4ax.com. ..
>
> >> > In 1918, on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day in the eleventh
> >> > month, the world rejoiced and celebrated.
>
> >> > After four years of bitter war, an armistice was signed.
>
> >> > The "war to end all wars" was over.
>
> >> > Please take a couple of minutes to remember the brave men and women
> >> > who have sacrificed their lives to protect ours.
>
> >> >http://www.actualriders.ca/lest_we_forget.htm
>
> >> "Lest we forget" There are those who have "actually" served.. There are
> >> those who have "actually" been a part of our history in contributing to
> >> the
> >> life in a free world.. There are the ones who've not been privileged to
> >> "serve", but have contributed by participating in respecting the ones who
> >> did serve.. They've advocated for veterans' by petitioning for enhanced
> >> benefits..
>
> >> Usenet lip service to our Veterans is considered by many, as an insult to
> >> their real service.. considering, of course.. the source..
>
> > Real classy, Sheriff, trashing someone offering a tribute to veterans
> > on Veteran's Day.
>
> > Not surprising, though, considering, of course, the source.
>
> Also "not surprising" is your response ..

Of course it's not. I generally support people of good will and good
humor like Don. I generally am appalled when pissants like you barge
in and attempt to ruin a good thing started by a good man.

> Goes hand in hand with my offense towards Don Binns..

Good. Anything that offends a pissant liar and lowlife scumbag like
you is good.

> Neither of you two pricks are qualified
> to solicit tribute to the real veterans who've made the sacrifices to
> enable you to post your usenet bullshit openly..

You're not qualified to criticize Don or me. We're both better men,
better net citizens, better riders, and far better human beings that
you could ever have dreamed of becoming, even before you chose to
display your lies and wanton hatreds here and elsewhere on usenet.

> "Tribute" where it counts, you hypocritical son of a bitch..

Fuck you, asswipe. You wouldn't know hypocritical if it bit you on
your ancient, unwiped, floor rolling, trailer trash ass.

> Go walk
> the wards of your nearest VA hospital.. do something real.. not spout
> usenet lipservice on a silly assed newsgroup..

Fuck you, you ancient spluttering, broken down, shit-for-brains loser.

"Road Glidin' Don" <d.langkd@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1194897675.169140.87670@i38g2000prf.googlegro ups.com...
> On Nov 12, 9:28 am, "Bill Walker" <bill.walk...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> "Calgary" <actual.rider_remove_the_obvio...@telus.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:v45dj3tup0iijck8tem056em5ria68ogr2@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > In 1918, on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day in the eleventh
>> > month, the world rejoiced and celebrated.
>>
>> > After four years of bitter war, an armistice was signed.
>>
>> > The "war to end all wars" was over.
>>
>> > Please take a couple of minutes to remember the brave men and women
>> > who have sacrificed their lives to protect ours.
>>
>> >http://www.actualriders.ca/lest_we_forget.htm
>>
>> "Lest we forget" There are those who have "actually" served.. There are
>> those who have "actually" been a part of our history in contributing to
>> the
>> life in a free world.. There are the ones who've not been privileged to
>> "serve", but have contributed by participating in respecting the ones who
>> did serve.. They've advocated for veterans' by petitioning for enhanced
>> benefits..
>>
>> Usenet lip service to our Veterans is considered by many, as an insult to
>> their real service.. considering, of course.. the source..
>
> Gotta take issue with you there, Bill. Sullying a sincere tribute
> because of your petty issues with Don is a selfish way of abusing the
> respect Canada's brave war veterans have earned.
>
> Worth viewing, if you haven't seen it:
> http://www.actualriders.ca/time.wmv

Here's another thought for you.. I've served with some of Canada's finest..
Side by side and under fire.. That so called "sincere tribute" is directed
to-
wards me, as well as the millions of other Americans and Canadians who
did their duty for their country and freedom.. Every day is my Veterans'
Day.
I reserve the right to be offended and even insulted by men like Dick Cheney
who was selected to lay the wreath, this past weekend.. I reserve the right
to
be offended by men like Don Binns, who'd pay lipservice "tribute" to genuine
Veterans' who have served and are in need.. I have been a Veteran first.. an
advocate for Veterans.. next.. I can also recognize a genuine tribute..

Newsgroup lipservice to our Veterans' does not impress me.. especially when
considering the "source"..
>
>
>